ENIGMA 2000 Newsletter - Issue 30

September 2005
Articles, newsreports and Items of interest :enigma2000-owner@yahoogroups.com

Voice stations | Oddities | Polytones
German branch | Numbers predictions
July 7th, 2005 | E22 analysis
Slavic stations | Feedback
HJH's watch | A room in Berlin
News Items | Web sites | Contribution deadlines
Index | E2K NL Home

Voice stations

We open our voice section with a brief analysis of the general number scene from PoSW and then move on to specific stations:

As regards current number station activity perhaps the most notable trend with regard to the voice stations is a revival of activity from the V02 Spanish speaking YL. Many of the long standing schedules failed to appear in June but have been heard again in late July and early August. In particular the Saturday 0600 UTC on 8,097 kHz and the 0700 UTC on 9,153 kHz showed up on 30-July for the first time since early June. All the usual technical problems are still very much evident, such as late starts, the occasional early start, a plain carrier suddenly going into 5Fs a few minutes past the hour without the usual three-minute call-up, a background buzz and the use on some transmissions of what seems to be a double sideband mode with greatly reduced or almost fully suppressed carrier which sounds extremely distorted when copied in AM but becomes much clearer with the receiver in either LSB or USB.

The G06/S06/E06 family continue to be active; the S06 Russian Man Tuesday schedule at 1630 + 1730 UTC appeared to vanish in the third week of July but was subsequently discovered on the following Tuesday having changed frequencies within the month, both moved lower, in much the same way as the E07 2000z Monday + Wednesday schedule did in the month of June. One disapointment with regard to S06 was that I could find no trace of the second Saturday 1600 + 1700 UTC second Saturday in the month schedule in August, always has the call "724" and usually reveals its presence by being up with carrier and tone at least ten minutes before start of transmission; however, there will be another chance to search on the fourth Saturday, the 27th.

The G06 German YL has been showing up much as expected, i.e. first Monday in the month 1900 + 2000 UTC, a search required since this Fraulein has stopped using frequencies as in the same month in previous years, and the twice in a month Thursday 1830 UTC and Friday 1930 UTC which does oblige us by using frequencies as in past years. The Saturday evening, UK time, G06 is back, as reported by GD; I had been searching on the chance that it might show up as last summer but failed to find any sign of it and then I realised after reading E2K 29 I had been tuning around one hour too late.

Of the non-voice stations the most noteworthy observation is the appearance in August of what seems to be an alternative type of PolyTone transmission. This has been heard on Tuesdays and Fridays in August starting at 2000z on 10,416 kHz, repeated 2020 UTC, 9,252 kHz and 2040 UTC 7,654 kHz, all three sendings with S9+ signals on the occasions when I have heard them. I first heard it on Friday 5-Aug when I caught the end of the 2020z sending. The transmission starts of with a shift between two tones and then goes into a distinct change with short bursts of more rapid tones. There is no steady underlying rhythm as with the more familiar XP Polytone. Something like this was reported in the spring and early summer of last year, I logged it in June 2004 in the early evening UK time but was never a strong signal and did not seem to be a regular schedule and soon vanished. This new PolyTone may be the return of designation "XPA" which was the subject of a detailed article by RN GB in E2K Newsletter 23 of July-04, page 30 which contains some detailed analysis.

As regards the more usual "XP" Polytone;- still on in the UK morning for those who can spare the time, heard on Friday 5-August, 0600 UTC, 9,236 kHz and 0620 UTC, 10,236 kHz, both sendings strong signals with a "no message" transmission of around 2 minutes 18 seconds duration.

Not so the X06 6-tone repeating; I have not heard a single one of these since late May; although X06 is unpredictable and follows no regular schedules this is the longest ever duration I can recall without finding at least one transmission.

 [Tnx PoSW]

PoSW’s analysis cannot be complete without his mention of the 6MHz French pirate who enjoys sending some rather strange transmissions:

Unusual music transmission, heard on the weekend of Saturday 6th and Sunday 7th of August on 6,878 kHz, or perhaps slightly lower, an AM station playing "Take Five" by the Dave Brubeck Quartet, an instrumental piece in the Modern Jazz style which made it into the mainstream pop charts in the early 1960's. First heard 0715 UTC on the Saturday, kept an eye on it in case it was part of the call-up routine for a number station since music has been used for this purpose in the past. Seemed to go on for a long time, when first released it fitted onto one side of a 7 inch 45 RPM vinyl! As the minutes passed by it became evident that the music was looped round, i.e as soon as it reached the finish it started again. Was still on when checked at various times throughout the day and the following morning. Still on Sunday evening when checked at around 1930z and 2100z and was still there at 0545z on the Monday; but had gone on the Monday evening at 1730z and has not been heard since.

Now onto the expanded logs:

E03/E03a

Apart from the regulations concerning the reception of wireless stations within Great Britain advice on reporting intelligence matters also exists in the form of DA notices.

Whoever the messages, from E03/E03a, are aimed at ENIGMA 2000 has no wish to 'advertise' the existence of these stations to those who may not support the best interests of Great Britain, or its representatives abroad. Although we are unable to stop discussion of E03/E03a, ENIGMA 2000 will remain aloof from any such discussion and will not be including reports or analysis on E03/E03a.

We recently received representation asking that we cover these two stations. The situation will remain the same – ENIGMA 2000 will not discuss or offer analysis on these two stations for the reasons offered above.

E06

Not E06 but infinitly more interesting given the events of the next day:

Looking round for E06 at 1400z, came across a strong carrier on 15040kHz. Left a receiver on it while searching, and at 1405, a Male voice with Arab accent said in English:

X Ray Number 2, X Ray Number 2, X Ray Number 2.

Nothing else was said after this and the carrier dropped at 1410z. [06/07] -- Tnx AnonUK See E22

PoSW opens the Voice logs proper with,

“Known schedules which can be monitored by those of us who are out earning a crust all day, or travelling to and from, - which excludes anything between, say, 7.30 AM and 5.30 PM British Summer Time, Monday to Friday, includes the weekly Sunday 1830 + 1930 UTC, call is always "690" and a schedule running on Wednesdays 2100 + 2200 UTC - maybe the first and third in the month.

Sunday 1830 + 1930 Schedule;-

Wednesday 2100 + 2200 UTC Schedule;-

Other E06 loggings;-

Thanks Peter! Now onto other E06 interceptions:

RNGB’s logs:

Note: E06 with fast zero endings repeat the following day, same times, if there is a message.

E07

The E07 English Man continues with the usual schedules;-

• Monday + Wednesday starting at 2000 UTC
  which had for many years been following a predictable routine of using the same frequencies in any given month as in the same month in previous years but all that changed in June when the schedule changed within the month from frequencies used in June of previous years to a different, lower trio of frequencies.
• Sunday + Wednesday schedule starting at 1700 UTC
  had long stopped using the frequencies employed in previous years but in June, July and August has used the same frequencies as in these months in 2004.
• Thursday schedule starting at 2010 UTC
  as far as I am aware this is the only day of the week on which it operates - and at the time of writing is still using the same frequencies as in the same month in previous years.

Monday + Wednesday Schedule

Thursday Schedule

Sunday + Wednesday Schedule

[Tnx PoSW]

RNGB’s E07 logs:

E10

From the pen of Bob we bring observations and analysis from our E10 desk:

E10 Desk for July 05

Frequencies list with C/S Heard (USB)

Comments

• 3/7 at 2015hrs on 5338.7. MIW2 off expected frequency, (Normally 5339)
• 4/7 at 2347hrs. CIO2 approx 2mins late. SYN2 & VLB2 on time at 2345hrs
• 6/7 at 2330hrs. JSR off freq on 5090.8. (Normally 5091)
• 7/7 at 2145hrs on 6369.7 VLB2 (Its like measles seems to be catching)
• 8/7 at 2345hrs on 6575 HNC-F ended 2350hrs no message
• 9/7 at 0001hrs on 6575 HNC-F ended 0005hrs no message
• 11/7 at 2115hrs on 7605 KPA2 extended call ongoing ended at 2220hrs
• 12/7 at 2115hrs on 7605 KPA2 extended call ongoing ended at 2220hrs
• 12/7 at 2115hrs on 4648 MIW2 extended call ongoing ended at 2220hrs
• 13/7 at 2115hrs on 7605 KPA2 extended call ongoing ended at 2220hrs
• 13/7 at 2115hrs on 4648 MIW2 extended call ongoing ended at 2220hrs
• 14/7 at 2315hrs on 7604.6 KPA2 (Normally 7605)
• 15/7 at 2015hrs on 7605 KPA2 extended call ongoing ended at 2120hrs
• 19/7 at 2030hrs on 7605 & 3557 KPA2 extended call ended at 2121hrs
• 19/7 at 2030hrs on 5339 + 4648 + 3640 MIW2 extended call ended at 2121hrs
• 22/7 at 2359hrs on 7605 KPA2 2x calls followed by 2x calls 0005hrs 23/7, 6x calls at 0009hrs followed by normal transmission commencing at 0015hrs ending at 0020hrs
• 25/7 at 2130hrs on 6270.8 ULX2 (Normally 6270)
• 28/7 at 2300hrs on 6270.8 ULX2 3mins transmission only

Ian Wraith reports JSR G19 & G25, ULX G91 & FTJ G25 repeatedly sending the same message during July

A hefty tome for the month of June was posted by J.Chircop and reading through, it indicated that JSR repeated a G22 message JAONH 7 times and a G57 message JZHUR 8 times at various dates on the same freq 5091mhz during that month.It also showed that PCD also sent two Group messages a G57 DJKQU (x9) and a G68 (x7) during the same period on 4.270Mhz. (Tnx JC)

Logs sent in by John Crow for the period July05 showed that JSR is still transmitting G22 JAONH and likewise PCD G57 DJKQU as reported in the June logs of J Chircop, Also confirming these were the reports from Ian Wraith.

John also noted ULX1 on the 12th, 24th, 27th, & 28th of July at 1800hrs on 4.880Mhz, and PCD1 on the 16th & 28th at 1900hrs on 4.270Mhz

(Tnx to all)

E10 Desk for August 05

Frequencies list with C/S Heard (USB)

Comments

4/8 0400hrs on 6912 KPA2, one call only no further transmissions heard. (This freq is normally CIO2)

At 0416hrs KPA2 on 7605 as normal..

8/8 2200hrs on 5091. With ULX2 and not JSR. Transmission ended 2 minutes later. Have only ever heard JSR on this frequency and always with a message at 2200. Perhaps a mistake ? (From Ian Wraith)

Perhaps not a mistake, normally E10 operatives are spot on and the system has been in use a long time. Looking through my logs (And also E2k newsletters) this is not the first time. (see comment 4/8 above)

Recently a number of members have noted variations from the expected freq's during July & Aug (Noted were JSR 5090.8, MIW2 5338.7 ULX2 6270.8, VLB2 6369.7 & KPA2 7604.6) (All usb)

Ian has also logged the constant repeated messages of ULX since 13 July and JSR 26 June, which are still ongoing. Also FTJ with a G25 since 17th of July. (Thx Ian)

9/8 Another little change to the opening call procedure from KPA2 on 7605 commencing with 1x call at 2212hrs, 3x calls at 2213hrs, 2x calls at 2214hrs and at 2216hrs as normal till 2221hrs.

13/8 at 1919hrs on 7605 KPA group message sent, ended at 1921hrs unfortunately was not prepared and missed the opening transmission.

17/8 2300hrs on 7605. ULX2 a 2mins Tx ending at 2302hrs. (Current KPA2 freq) Reported 2nd occurence with ULX2 this month see comment 8/8 above. ( As I said "Perhaps not a mistake" Ian)

During the month of July KPA2 & MIW2 were heard on what I term as extended calls being 1hr or over just repeating the callsign (See July log). As at the 23rd of this month (Aug) I have not heard anything other than the normal 5mins Tx

BMLongfield, Kent

[Tnx Bob].

E11

To start, a copy of an email from Gert who wrote,

"Found an unknown E11 today, Thursday 25^th which I heard at 13.40z when it was already in progress with a message. It ended 13.42z so probably started at 13.30z. Frequency was 9179 kHz (a new one).Not sure if it will return on this frequency with a regular sked, could well be a one-off."

[Tnx Gert – excellent find].

9179kHz 1340z 25/08 ended 1342z Gert

9902kHz 1100z 20/07[186/00] Spot the missing 6!

©PLondon20/07/05

E11b

E15

Revised Frequency schedule devised by Manolis Petrakis

And the phonetics used in station idents:

E17

See also E17z

E17z

E22

Freqs: 15040//17385kHz

Now onto DoK’s thoughts on E22:

The reemergence of this station with obvious connotations because of the transmission dates has caused something of a stir.

I opened my own logs on this station at 1355z on Saturday 9^th July 2005 and have continued to monitor both frequencies from 0800 to 2000z since.I missed the 1100z transmission on 22/07/05. At that time one of my receivers was tuned to 18303kHz to confirm the M10 schedule. However my other receivers were brought back on line, with their accompanying recorders. The fourth receiver is permanently set up with an RDF system.

All other transmissions have been logged on a minute by minute basis and recorded whilst RDF bearings were taken. [For the RDF enthusiasts amongst us remember the saying, ‘East is least, and West is best’]!

Having listened to my recordings many times and satisfied myself as to the accuracy of the logs, like others I have come to my own conclusions as to language, accents and words spoken; not to mention background noises and voices.

With the amount of interest being raised on these transmissions it is not surprising that a lot of the conclusions being reached border on the ridiculous. One such E22 account [not from e2k]that has crossed my desk actually contained errors,omissions and was inaccurate.

Due to reasons I am not prepared to go into I am not publishing my logs and other certain information.[Thanks DoK 31/08].

A DEFINITIVE 17 PAGE DOCUMENT ON E22 CAN BE DOWLOADED FROM THE FILES SECTION OF THE ENIGMA 2000 NUMBER MONITORS GROUP:

The doc contains observations and bearing information to predict the possible whereabouts of the E22 transmitters.

E23 Frequencies and Times. All SSB [From AnonUK]

Week 2 was M04 Not heard since September 2000

Since December 2004 skeds have become erratic, and may not stick to correct weeks. Some voice transmissions have been heard in week 2

Week 1 Usually starts on the first Monday of the Month, but there have been variations to this.

Times are not rigid, has been known to start as early as Hour + 52

[Tnx AnonUK].

AnonUK reported week 4 freqs being used:

E25

[From the E25 desk]

• ID’s used with messages so far (no new ones heard):
  222 275 440 555 730 780 835 (arabic counting) and 906
• ID’s used with control messages so far (new ones are underlined):
  200 209 220 227 270 272 276 277 377 557 784 785 788 830 837 905 909

Transmission times: any time between 11.00 and 15.00 UTC. Likes 12.30 and 12.45. More transmissions on one day possible.

Only one frequency in use: 9450 kHz, mode AM.

E25a = control message (for example 277 2 or 788 96 97)

Null message: calling 280 over and over for 5 minutes. Preamble with id possible (see log aug4)

An odd variant heard on august 4 with one 4fig group inserted.

All transmissions can start with a musical intro lasting between 3 and 20 minutes.

So far there seems to be three different voices.

Voice nr.1 is a deep male voice.

Voice nr.2 has a higher voice (but defenitly male) and sounds more ‘enthousiastic’.

And there is a voice nr.3 which sounds very high pitched, almost female.

For the pronounciation of E25 Paul shed a light on this exotic station:

“One thing I find interesting is the word 'Repeat' when used on E25. Arabic has no 'P' in its alphabet. When I was in Aden all those I encountered who called me by my first name substituted a 'B' as they could not get their tongue around the beginning of my name. I have noticed that the word 'Repeat' when used by E25 is in fact spoken as 'Rebeat'. If you listen carefully you really can make it out”

Very true Paul,it sounds indeed like Rebeat. Thanks for your interesting view.

In short

For the period july and august 2005.

Now the logs in detail:

TomH heard E25a on July 10^th 2005 out of the internet tuner in Skurup Sweden with an S8-S9 at 1156 UTC till 1205 with a control message "277 1" The usual man with the middle eastern accent and the usual mic tap at the end to signal transmitter signoff.

On July 12, 2005, he heard the Arabic man (in english) again, with a weak transmission. Signed on around 1143 UTC July 12, 2005
3 ID's in the following order, a control transmission, no messages today. This is announcer #2, with the more enthuastic voice. #1 is the one with the heavy eastern accent and a deeper toned voice.

785 94 96
788 95
788 94 96
Ended with the usual tap, as it sounds like he is tapping the mic with his hand.

PLondon warned us for a E25 transmission, starting 1230z calling “906” on July 17^th.
Sadly, no other reports received.

At july 19^th , 12.03z, 9450kHz, E25a appeared again, heard by ML i/p, YL clg (2773, 2702) R
ended 12:05.15 no sign-off heard as had quickly tuned to E15 (NRH)
Never heard a 4f null call before, anybody catch the start - if so was there  anything odd, very clear sig.

12:16.10 carrier up - tone/extraneous noises.
12:17.40 carrier down, no traffic.

The 4f call was probably a E25a message with 3f + 1f. This was later confirmed by GD who heard the same message and reported: “277 3 270 2” Repeated for 6 minutes, then EOT and 3 taps on the mike.

Not much later E25 showed up again with a full message, heard and reported by GD and ML

ML reported this was the male with the deeper voice.

1230z 906
Message message
9431 3710 1531 4458 3993 0355 5473 7340 3143 4031 6679 3710 4676
EOM EOT

And again a message, heard by both ML and GD, at 1250z.

444 444 444
Message message
4343 4211 2620 3856 4223 3557 6417 2821 4143 4477 2624
EOM EOT

A busy day for E25…

Both PLondon and TomH (via internet radio’s in Stuttgart DE and Skurup Sweden ) reports:
This time an E25 with two messages with two announcers!!

1217z Sign on… with high pitched carrier
906 906 906 906
906 906 906 906
906 906 906 906
906 906 906 906
Message message messsage
9431 3710 1531 4298
8992 0355 5473 7340
3143 4031 6679 3710
4676
Repeat Repeat Repeat [typically sent as 'Rebeat Rebeat Rebeat'].
9431 3710 1531 4298
8992 0355 5473 7340
3143 4031 6679 3710
4676
EOM EOT 1237z Carrier remains up:

At 1238z [different op]
3143 4031 4879 3710
4676
EOM EOT
Off 1239z

Note the 11th group has changed from 6679 to 4879 BUT, it is good practice to start at a new line for corrections. In this case the op has seen fit to start at the group 3143. That suggests that instead of placing in lines of 5 groups as we do, we can assume they place groups in lines of 4 as above. That 11th group faux pas has given us an insight as to how they would copy down their messages. That of course raises even more questions. ie Why four figure groups? Why lines of four? Everyone else uses groups of 5 and 5/10 line transcription. What is this fascination with the figure 4?

 [TomH also received this message - his figs matched mine as did Robert Schwarz's note that the 11th group had changed].

Again a transmission on july 20^th, TomH reports, a few minutes after the sign off of the first E25 transmission, around 1244 UTC I heard a carrier pop up with the usual high pitched noise. A few minutes later the familiar long E25 signature Eastern music appear and loop for a long time, atleast 'till 1258 UTC. Been long since I had heard E25 TX with musical intro, perhaps I have been missing any further E25 transmissions because of lack of reception ability.
Calling "222" at 1258 when the eastern music ended. The OM announcer sounded very bored with this tx, by the sound of his voice.
As soon as the ID was complete the second announcer immediately begun the message, I am under the impression a tape is used for the initial ID's and then a live announcer comes on and does the message, the very fast switch from the ID to message gives me the belief that these may be pre-recorded transmission. I didn't bother to copy any message text because of the heavy fading, made it very very difficult.
Signed off 1305 with "end of message, end of transmission" No repeat

Log from Mike, july 23^rd :

12:45z  E25 222, 222 Good signal of the music running up to 12:45
The the announcer who sounded board stiff, started calling 222, still in progress but weak

E25 keeps us busy, ML reports:

Sun 24/07/05, 9450kHz, 11:43.30z carrier up with tone, v good sig. (tone noticed also on 24/8)
11:44.45z tone
11:46.00z "785 98 788 97", no intro
11:50.50z ends,carrier down,no sign-off
11:51.55z tone
11:52.45z tone
no further tfc
Todays voice sounded quite young and the pronounciations "niner" and "Fifer" quite marked,
wonder if he has a Brit radio tutor?

TomH Heard E25 this morning (aug 4^th) off an internet radio in Sweden .
Tuned to 9450 around 1200 to hear the OM announcer
275 275 275
Message Message Message!
1311 repeated once
280 repeated many times
REPEAT REPEAT REPEAT!
1311 repeated once
280 repeated many times
End of message, end of transmission
A very odd null message Tom, nice catch!

On august 6^th 2005 Mike heard a E25 transmission:
9450 kHz 12:30z E25 calling 906, 906 good AM signal, did not have time to hear the message.

From PLondon we received this one:

9450kHz 1230z aug 07^th 2005. Reception was weak readable
906 + 20grp message
eom/eot 1239z

Hi List, E25 log aug 16, 2005
TomH came with this log, heard on aug 16^th 2005, 1238 UTC.
Music starts 1242z
1247z ID begins!
222 222 222
Message Message Message
4032 6290 5540 2775 8715 1708 1393 5874 5540
Repeat Repeat Repeat!
4032 6290 5540 2775 8715 1708 1393 5874 5540
END OF MESSAGE, END OF TRANSMISSION
signed off 1252
Thanks Tom!

Another log from TomH heard on 24^th aug 05 on 9450
1104-1148 UTC
Signed on 1104 UTC,
Message didn't begin untill 11.44! The ID was 784/1 and ended 1148 UTC with the usual 4 mic taps.

X and Mike heard E25 on august 24^th, carrier on 12.35 with a 1kHz tone.

Starting 12.45z with the usual music.
222 222 222
Msg (x3)
4102 6290 4310 1235 7220 6150 6719 3559 4310 (third and last group identical).
Repeat (x3)
--- rpt of msg ---
Eom/eot.

A log from X:

Fri aug 26

11.45z calling “ 785 2” and at

12.45z calling “ 227 4 220 3”

Thanks for all your efforts (in random order): TomH, ML, Mike, GD, RS, PLondon and X.

G06

Schedules for this station do exist:

First Monday of each month [2005]

[Repeated Tuesday if message]

Thursdays[2004]:

Friday[2004]:

[Friday Freqs are 4792, 5442 or 5934kHz and occur alternate weeks].

Saturday [2^nd and 3^rd Sats each month]:

Sundays

Known schedules are the long-standing first Monday in the month 1900 + 2000 UTC and the twice a month Thursday 1830 UTC transmission with a repeat of the message but with a different call at 1930 UTC on the following day. And the return of a weekend schedule, also heard in the summer months of last year, at 2020 UTC as reported by RNGB in E2K 29.

First Monday in the Month Schedule;-

Thursday 1830 UTC Schedule;-

Friday 1930 UTC Schedule;-

*Weekend Schedule;-

A Saturday G06 schedule was heard on several occasions last summer on 12,210 kHz. I hadn't been able to find it this year so was somewhat surprised to see it reported in E2K 29; and then I realised I had been searching on Saturdays at the wrong time, 2120z instead of 2020z…..

G22

Slavic stations

Onto the Slavic Desk’s chart and review, followed by the logs:

Chart 20

M10, S10d and S17c from 15^th May, 2005

Compiled by the Slavic Desk

Freqs ± 2kHz

Activity Designations:

• R:
  Regular transmissions on the time and day shown weekly
• I:
  Irregular transmissions on the day and time shown
• ALT:
  Regular transmissions on the day and time shown, but on alternate weeks.

ALT see alternate week prog: see text later

ALT see alternate week prog: see text later

M11 Schedules:

In Chart 20 above it will be seen that there are a small number of additions to Chart 19. These are two schedules, S0150 and 1100 with their frequencies, plus, a further five parallels to 0330, 1800, S1855, 1940 and 1950z. In all other respects it is Chart 19.

My thanks to RNGB for finding the 1100z, particularly as this originates the messages repeated later at 1440 ans 1530z. Tthanks also to the member who heard the S0150z and to PLondon for confirming the schedule.

The schedule moved from Mon/Tues to Tues/Wed.

The frequency of 18303kHz is, as far as I am aware, the highest frequency found for this Group. As yet no parallels have been found for 18303 and 13405 on these schedules.

I am once again showing the latest alternate week programme schedukes as some of these may change from !st September when the Autumn/Winter changes come into force.

Refer to Chart 15 for general guidance.

 Alternate Week Programme

• WEEKS COMMENCING: 07 & 21 August 2005
  0340, 0800, S0820, 1140, 1200, 1700 [wed/thurs], 1820, S1820, 1900
• WEEK COMMENCING: 14^th August 2005
  1100, 1340, 1440, 1530, 1700 [Mon/Tues], 1840, 1940

S04

Nil Reports

S06

The next list was prepared by Gert using not only his own observations but also those